Saturday, February 15, 2014

Joubodaiin



While reading Kicho&Nobunaga by Rumi Komonz, something caught my attention that needs to be discussed.  Believe or not, there is a very high possibility that Nohime lodged together with Nobunaga at Joubodaiin Temple in 1568.  Why is this important?  Ota Gyuichi's Shincho-Ko-ki has nothing on Nohime rooming with Nobunaga on October 27th, 1568.  It just states that Nobunaga spent the night at Joubodaiin.  However, according to the Akechi Chronicle, Nohime was with Nobunaga on October 27th.  Did Gyuichi purposely omit Nohime because she was a woman or did not think it was important to him?  She was with Nobunaga at Jobodaiin in my opinion and it needs more explanation from historians and scholars alike.

Kicho&Nobunaga (Komonz p. 86)

"Only six days after the re-establishment of the Ashikaga Shogunate, Kicho and Nobunaga left Kyoto to return to Gifu.  On October 27th, they lodged Joubodaiin Temple together.
They were served vegetarian meals at the Buddhist temple.  They had ripened persimmons for supper.  It was Kicho's favorite."

One has to remember that Nobunaga loved persimmons as well.

Nobunaga no tame!

14 comments:

Daeva-kun said...

I think that the author, as a woman, likes to focus on the romantic side of the story XD
I was browsing the book on GoogleBooks, and for the most of it, it sounds like fiction, more than a proper historical document... I noticed that many like to portray Nobunaga and Kichou in a marriage of passion, but to be honest I don't think so, also if Nobunaga definitely respected Kichou as the daughter of The Viper, the first daimyo who recognized his strenght and real nature.
I think that the author used "blank parts" in official history and filled them with Nobunaga and Kichou's extra romantic moments.

To be honest the whole deal with women in Sengoku era is quite obscure.
For example, do you have any info on the concubine who gave birth to Nobutada's son..? I could find only her name as a nun!

otsuke said...

Kitsuno, Nobunaga's concubine, gave birth to Nobutada, Nobukatsu, and Nobunaga's oldest daughter Gotoku. I went to visit Kitsuno's grave in Konan City back in December.

Daeva-kun said...

Kitsuno is Nobutada's mother :3 I was asking about the concubine who gave birth to Sanposhi, aka Hidenobu, Nobutada's son ;3

I found about Tokujyuin on this page: http://www.biwako-visitors.jp/go-shiga/feature/tokujyuin.html , but I have no idea of her "original" name... It's said that she may be recognized as the daughter of Shiokawa Nagamitsu (?), an Oda retainer.
--So little informations, as usual XD !

otsuke said...

Okay, Nobutada's son. According to Yasuhiro Nishigaya's Oda Nobunaga Jiten, Hidenobu's mother was Suzu no kata.

otsuke said...

Here is some more information. Hidenobu's mother was the daughter of Shiokawa Nagamitsu.

Daeva-kun said...

Thank you very much :D !! I remember that at a certain point the name "Suzu" popped out, but I don't remember the source... It was definitely some Japanese website that I was trying to decipher with Excite translator, though x'DD

Daeva-kun said...

--How disheartening-- I realized that we had this discussion already on the SA forum: http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?p=47872&sid=74a6fd17f7264e6d7bad5e0695e20564

--I'm getting old x'D

D_A Renoir said...

I own that novel. I find it rather awkward because it translates everyone's names. It's rather disconcerting seeing stuff like Nobukatsu being referred to as "Lord Tea-whisk". I know his childhood name was Chasenmaru, but still.

Akechi Chronicle? That's something I would be interested in looking at. Do you have any suggestions on where to find it?



D_A Renoir said...

I own that novel. I find it rather awkward because it translates everyone's names. It's rather disconcerting seeing stuff like Nobukatsu being referred to as "Lord Tea-whisk". I know his childhood name was Chasenmaru, but still.

Akechi Chronicle? That's something I would be interested in looking at. Do you have any suggestions on where to find it?



D_A Renoir said...

"It is said that his mother, Tokujuin, was the daughter of Nagamitsu Shiokawa, Yoshinari Mori or Shingen Takeda"

Huh??? O__o

I get the Shingen Takeda one, because I've heard that Nobutada was arranged to be married to Shingen's daughter at some point, but Mori Yoshinari?? That's... Okay...

That would make for interesting discussion, considering Ranmaru and stuff...

otsuke said...

At times it is hard to follow Kicho&Nobunaga due to the weird names. At times, it does not make sense. for example, Onabe no Kata is Lady Saucepan? give me a break! Just use Lady Onabe. Lord Strange for Oda Nobutada? It does not seem right at all. it is a good book, but the names is the weakness in my opinion.

As for the Akechi chronicle, I do not own it. Looking for someone who do own it. LOL

Daeva-kun said...

I get the Shingen Takeda one, because I've heard that Nobutada was arranged to be married to Shingen's daughter at some point, but Mori Yoshinari?? That's... Okay...
Yeah, it's because the infos are uncertain XD
I'd go with Shiokawa Nagamitsu, though! He's the one I found cited the most in the researches that I did!

I own that novel. I find it rather awkward because it translates everyone's names.
--Another reason to ignore this book, I guess XD

D_A Renoir said...

@Otsuke: I know! There's no fault in just using the names as-is!

But where did you get the Akechi Chronicle info on Nouhime being there, then? Did someone write an article about it?

@Dae: Just... don't touch this book. It gives me a headache. Spare yourself.

otsuke said...

Look at p. 86 footnote in Kicho&Nobunaga. Also see p. 137 as well.