Monday, May 5, 2014

Loyalty


The role of the Men of the Fields at the Battle of Okehazama was critical to Nobunaga's victory.  As I stated many times before, Nobunaga had more trust and loyalty in the Men of the Fields than his own retainers.  The Men of the Fields knew Nobunaga had a plan to defeat Imagawa Yoshimoto, but his vassals did not due to betrayal.

David D. Neilson's Society at War (p. 88)

"Nobunaga had gone to the Men of the Fields precisely because they were outside of the formal military infrastructure and could be trusted.  As Maeno Shoemon and Hachisuka Koroku said during their audience with Nobunaga, they appreciated the fact that he treated their clans with favor.  They owed him a debt of gratitude and their performance in the planning and execution of the battle of Okehazama was payment due.  In addition, their familial connections with Nobunaga through Kitsuno and the three sons she had with him, irrevocably tied the interests of the Ikoma, Maeno, and Hachisuka Clans as well as those of their wider network of the Men of the Fields to those of Nobunaga and created ties of loyalty and mutual self-interest which were stronger than any bond created by an oath of vassalage."

Neilson made a minor error when he stated that Kitsuno had three sons.  She had two sons and a daughter.  I did write a post almost four years ago on Nobunaga's Okehazama plan.

http://otsuke.blogspot.com/2010/12/nobunaga-had-plan-and-did-not-trust.html

Nobunaga no tame!

21 comments:

Eleonora Nappi said...

Thank you for this explicative post!

"they were outside of the formal military infrastructure and could be trusted."
Yet, I still can't understand why the author has to say that they could be trusted "because" they weren't his vassals... Sounds like a contradiction to me.
It makes it sound as if Nobunaga didn't trust the men who composed his army.
(but still, it's difficult to get a whole concept out of a mere sentence--)

Also, what does "Men of the Fields" refer too :3 ?
In my naivety I guessed that it referred to farmers and commoners, but it doesn't..?

Also, I'd like to get this book but I can't find it anywhere D: Is it even possible? Where did you get your copy?

otsuke said...

David D. Neilson's theis, Society at War: Eyewitness Accounts of Sixteenth Century Japan is a dissertation from the University of Oregon. I ordered it from ProQuest Information and Learning a few years ago.

Eleonora Nappi said...

Mmmh, I was about to order an unbound copy but I'm a bit perplexed... Can I get it assuming that I don't live in the USA?
From the ToS it sounds as if I can get a copy only if I'm part of a library or some kind of educational organization :/ ..?
It also talks about service's fees... Uhm...

otsuke said...

My copy is unbound. If I can remember, I just ordered it. I do not know about overseas orders.

Eleonora Nappi said...

I sent an e-mail with some questions to ProQuest about the issue ;3
I'll keep you updated!

otsuke said...

Thanks. Neilson has also wrote a paper on the Madness of Hideyoshi. The paper explains how he suffered from syphilis and he spread a lot of STD's to his concubines. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of that paper.

Eleonora Nappi said...

I received a reply from the guys of ProQuest and it seems as if it's ok, but I'm still not sure about the whole thing XD

Mmmh, sometimes I have the idea that Nobunaga = Madman and Hideyoshi = Psycho are just fabrications from Edo people.
Since Japaneses at the time tended to be very conservative, they couldn't understand the farsighteness of both Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, and came up with such "legends" to disregard such personalities, seen as dangerous and eccentric, during the Tokugawa rule.
I mean, what proofs are there about Hideyoshi suffering of siphilis and spreading stuff to his concubines? Did Neilson or the sources that he mentioned had Hideyoshi taking a STD exam..? Sometimes I have the impression that 80% of the "historical sources" on the issue are nothing but "rumors" spread by a "chatty neighbourhood"...

otsuke said...

I have a friend who has the paper. It has a list on Hideyoshi's concubines that received STD's. I really want to read that paper since it explains Nobunaga's relationship with Hideyoshi.

Eleonora Nappi said...

Don't you think that it's strange that he can tell which concubines had STD? We don't even know when these women were born or their names, but the author could tell if they suffered of such things..? Was it even possible to diagnosize STD in Japan at the time..?

otsuke said...

Some of them became blind. I wish I had the paper. My friend has the Madness of Hideyoshi.

Eleonora Nappi said...

There are many other more probable causes for blindness than syphilis! That's a rare symptom that shows up after a prolonged infection and is usually accompanied or preceeded by more noticeable symptoms.

otsuke said...

He really went crazy. The syphilis that he suffered from messed him up. The two Korean invasions, Rikyu's death, Hidetsugu's death, and so on. To even rub it in, Hideyoshi is not the father of Hideyori. Ono Harunaga is the father. Hideyoshi had sex with Yodogimi only once and it did not go well. she was the dominant one. Hideyoshi had a relationship with another woman before meeting Ne-Ne. Dr. Neilson's Madness of Hideyoshi goes into great detail. I have a college of mine who has that paper and gives me information time to time. still, I need that paper. LOL

Eleonora Nappi said...

What's wrong with invading Korea? Isn't Empress Jingu hailed a heroine because of it XD ?
Would you say that Napoleon or Hitler were afflicted by syphilis because they tried to invade Russia..?
So he killed Hidetsugu and Rikyu. And? How does it prove that he was syphilitic..? Or that he was some kind of psycho..?
Maybe he was paranoid. I could understand that.
But seeing him as a "dement" is a bit too much!
Just because someone has a theory on a subject it doesn't mean that it's true!

The theory of Hideyori not being the son of Hideyoshi is pretty much a given! If it was for all the concubines he had, at this time he would have had a thousand children XD
So, Ono Harunaga, that's it? I think that it's a bit daring to come with a name and surname, though...

otsuke said...

Hideyoshi was a very insecure man. Once he caught, syphilis, he became more unstable. There is a theory that one of the reasons why Hideyoshi boiled Ishikawa Goemon and his kid alive was they both knew each other during childhood. Hideyoshi did not want to be caught with a bandit. Boiling people alive in a cauldron was Hideyoshi's favorite way to execute people. Once Ieyasu came to power, he had the cauldrons destroyed.

Eleonora Nappi said...

Sounds like "Edo fabrications" to me :/
Something made up for propaganda purposes during Tokugawa rule to make his predecessors look bad in comparison, and legitimate his dictature.
There's tones of stuff like this about Nobunaga too, and it mostly comes out from kabuki plays. Go figure!

otsuke said...

That being said, Hideyoshi was a lot like Minamoto Yoritomo: Unstable, paranoid, and eventually, the family line dies out.

D_A Renoir said...

Ergh, I still can't buy that thing because it won't accept my payment because of some site error. I don't even know why.

And... wow, now I get what Dae was saying. Those accusations sounds so outrageous.

I'm interested in looking at this further.

D_A Renoir said...

Scratch the credit card error. Now I cannot even FIND the paper at all.

It showed up in Google but all the purchase links are broken or dead. I can't find it on Proquest.

Eleonora Nappi said...

I know, right :/ ?

You mean "Society at War"..? Here's a link to the order: https://order.proquest.com/OA_HTML/pqdtibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=3285619&sitex=10020:22372:US&track=DxWeb&dlnow=1&rpath=http%3A%2F%2Fdissexpress.umi.com%2Fdxweb%2Fresults.html%3FQryTxt%3Doda%2Bnobunaga%26By%3D%26Title%3D%26pubnum%3D
..I wish that the option for a PDF copy would be available >_>;
If you get to buy it, would you let me know if there are extra fees besides the shipping :o ..?

BTW, you can use this page to search the website: http://dissexpress.umi.com/dxweb/search.html
:D

otsuke said...

I have not bought a thesis paper in awhile due to funds. That being said, I would love to get my hands on The Madness of Hideyoshi.

D_A Renoir said...

The PDF one was the one that got me error all the time. The option was there, but it just won't let me pay for it :/

I'll try the unbound version next time then...